Dean went to hell for Sammy. Seems odd for Dean to turn his back on him. Even if he was just upset and was just venting his anger it was stupid. Bobby is awsome here, Dean needed to hear it. He needed to be verbally slapped in the face by the man. What was Dean expecting from Bobby anyways? A pat on the back and for him to say 'Poor Deno, you're right, leave your troubed brother at the mercy of his own twisted brain, no bad will come of it.' Sam is in danger at the oment and if his power grows and if he gets crazier, the world is in danger too.

Trufax. I think Dean has the right to vent his anger. If he said things like "I can't beleive Sam has done this. Has gone this far." Blah blah that is one thing but for him tos ay "We're done. And I'm done with him. And I don't even know if he was my brother." that is a bit far IMO.

The problem I have is that Dean has, for years, sacrificed everything for his family. He gave up his childhood for John, he practically raised Sam, he still loved and respected his father when it turns out that the YED was nicer to him, he put up with Sam's slights to Dean's intelligence, he welcomed Sam back with open arms after Sam walked out on them, he gave up his soul and his life for his brother and was extremely tempted to do so for his father, and the list goes on. Dean practically exudes familial devotion. So why shouldn't he call enough enough? What would Sam need to do for Dean to finally be done? Actually kill him instead of just attempting it?

And for Bobby to ignore all of Dean's history? To claim that families make you miserable when the only one drenched in misery is Dean? That makes Bobby a jackass. And again, a hypocrite because he washed his own hands of Sam after Dean's death. To make these statements now is just galling.

LOL You have very good points. I don't really have an argument for this. Your right I'm not sure how far Dean should go before he saids enough is enough. I guess I just don't think that Sam has really done anything up until now to deserve the backlash either. He hasn't been an asshole to Dean. He just took his idea of sacrifice for the family at a normal level. He chose to go to Standford after his father told him leave but don't come back. So I don't really feel that he was abandoning Dean here.

I guess it's a matter of just seeing it from Dean's pov and his sacrifices. I have a hard time doing that. I am always trying to see both perspectives and though I totally understand Dean's feelings I don't think this is the time to abandon Sam. It would be different to me if Sam was just being a total dick and not drinking demon blood. This is where I have the problem with it. Sam is virtually not in his right mind. So it's not like he was trying to kill Dean really. I think when he snaps out of this he's going to be devastated about all he has done. At least I hope so!

"when it turns out that the YED was nicer to him"

I don't know what you are referring to here. Can you give me an example?

"Sam's slights to Dean's intelligence,"

I don't understand this point either? Are you referring to right now? Because again I think that's Sam and his insanity. I don't recall Sam insulting Dean's intelligence before this.

Thanks for having this conversation with me. You have really interesting and good points. :-)

I guess I just don't think that Sam has really done anything up until now to deserve the backlash either. He hasn't been an asshole to Dean

Oh, I absolutely think Sam's been an ass to Dean. He's lied to him, manipulated him, withheld important information, insulted him repeatedly, doubted his abilities, and the list goes on. Some of that I can blame on the demon blood, especially recently, but the others I'm sort of at a loss for and hope Show properly explains before the end of the finale. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving Sam more and more as the season progresses (I adore me a tragic hero) and find him infinitely more interesting here than I did in previous seasons, but Sam has definitely been an ass.

So it's not like he was trying to kill Dean really. I think when he snaps out of this he's going to be devastated about all he has done. At least I hope so!

I agree with this, wholeheartedly. It would definitely be different if regular!Sam was doing all this!

The YED thing I was commenting on referred to the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean recognized that John was possessed because Azazel complimented him instead of reaming him out for using a bullet. I thought it was a fantastic father-son moment, right up until Dean turned the Colt on him.

Because again I think that's Sam and his insanity. I don't recall Sam insulting Dean's intelligence before this.

I honestly wish that were the case. But starting in S1 onward, we have many slights along these lines. A few I can think of right off the top of my head are Sam's sneering at Dean's homemade EMF meter (seriously the mechanical skill it would take to convert a Walkman into one of those is impressive), Sam refusing to believe that Dean could do any research on his own in Shadow, and at least twice in S4 where Sam expressed considerable surprise that Dean was well read (the bit with the Odyssey and with the Kurt Vonnegut reference), not to mention actually terming himself smarter in 4x14 to Dean's face. There are other references I could make as well, those are just the ones that pop out at me. I know the last two are from when Sam's started to slide, but the surprise that Dean can read is something that's not out of character for him (while actually telling Dean that Sam's smarter is).

LOL, I love SPN meta and discussing ideas so thank you for having it with me. :D

"Oh, I absolutely think Sam's been an ass to Dean. He's lied to him, manipulated him, withheld important information, insulted him repeatedly, doubted his abilities, and the list goes on. Some of that I can blame on the demon blood, especially recently, but the others I'm sort of at a loss for and hope Show properly explains before the end of the finale."

See I took it to be that Sam has been drinking demon blood since Ruby met him over the summer of Dean's dissapearence, which is why I chalk up his assholish behavior to this. But maybe I am wrong abou that.

" Don't get me wrong, I'm loving Sam more and more as the season progresses"

HOMG I so agree with you here! I have always been more of Dean fan. Always though to Sam as meh. But this season I find Sam so exciting! I am LOVING this storyline.

"to the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean recognized that John was possessed because Azazel complimented him instead of reaming him out for using a bullet."

I never really thought about this scene. That is interesting.

As to the insulting thing, I guess I hadn't thought about it up until this season. But now that you mention it I have never really considered Dean book smart. I always thought of him as good at math and science, while Sam would be smart in english, history, sociology, etc.....

I just figured they were smart in different ways. I don't recall the scene in Shadow so I would have to go back and watch that. As to the EMF reader I didn't think Sam was insulting Dean. Just laughing at how the EMF reader looked. But maybe Interpreted that scene wrong.


PS: Why do you think that Castiel let out Sam? Any theories?

PPS: Despite our difference in opinion, I think you are very interesting! I am friending you, hope that's okay! ;-)

It's totally cool to friend me! Friend away! I'll friend you back in a minute. :D I think the differences in opinions are what make the Show and its fanbase interesting. I mean, that there can be so many drastically different thoughts on a one minute long clip is just impressive. XD

See I took it to be that Sam has been drinking demon blood since Ruby met him over the summer of Dean's dissapearence, which is why I chalk up his assholish behavior to this. But maybe I am wrong abou that.

I think Sam probably was drinking up during the summer and then stopped in 4x04, but his gradual shift over the course of the season suggests to me that he's either amping it up over time or that the effects grow stronger the longer he's on it. So assholish behavior now is pretty obviously explained away, but back in 4x01... He doesn't really have the same excuse. It's not so much that he started lying back then, it's HOW he was lying - by protecting Ruby (unnecessary - he could have said she'd shown up and been an ally but Sam still didn't trust her) and the whole thing about Dean's "dying wish"? It's one thing to lie about using his powers, it's another thing to invoke Dean's death as part of it, you know? It took it from "kinda jerky" to "definitely being an ass" and I just don't understand why Sam did that or even how he could have.

But this season I find Sam so exciting! I am LOVING this storyline.

I am loving Sam this season. I'm with you - prior to S4, he was just kind of bland. I'm all about Dean (still am, no matter how interesting Sam is becoming) but trying to figure out Sam and his motivations this season has just been fascinating!

I always thought of him as good at math and science, while Sam would be smart in english, history, sociology, etc.....

I think that Dean has always shown more of a natural proclivity towards hands on stuff, things that will be useful to a Hunter, whereas Sam has a displayed a more traditional sort of intelligence. Dean's shown himself to be pretty good at English and word puzzles (the bit where he comes up with all those anagrams in that first jail episode show me that) and of course this season we've seen that he's pretty well read, but yeah, in general I think he focuses more on things that will be useful, not things just for fun. But Sam seems surprised when Dean breaks out of that mold and displays talents beyond that, even though Dean hunted on his own for a while and would have had to do his own research during that time.

The thing with the EMF can be read in more than one way so please interpret it as you see fit. :D I see Sam not so much insulting Dean as Dean's creation (and through it, Dean). He's definitely not impressed by it and given that Dean's kinda anti-internet, it can be read that Dean figured out how to do make it on his own. Other points to this regard, Dean also appears to be the inventor of the rock salt bullets, had no issues creating that thing in Croatian, and made the elecromagnetic pulse thing that destroyed the Ghostfacer's "evidence". Figuring out how to make an EMF meter from a walkman couldn't have been easy or simple, but Sam just kind of scoffs at it.

As for Castiel, IMHO he's following Zachariah's orders and Zachariah? Well, if Bobby is an ass for what he said to Dean, then Zachariah is like the KING of asses based on what we've seen of him so far. XD I think he's got his own agenda and he's strongarming Castiel into obeying, then using Castiel and Dean's relationship to manipulate Dean as well. I wonder if he might want to have the last Seal broken, like Uriel did, or maybe he's not an angel at all or has been possessed himself... Azazel was able to possess a Reaper which should have been impossible, why wouldn't a powerful demon (or perhaps a fallen angel?) be able to possess Zachariah? Or maybe he's just evil. XD His name isn't an actual angel's name - it doesn't even end in 'el' like an angel's should. Zachariah was a biblical prophet, not an angel at all.

All in all, I just know we can't trust him and while Castiel is being forced into obeying him, we can't trust Cas either. :(

"thing about Dean's "dying wish"? It's one thing to lie about using his powers, it's another thing to invoke Dean's death as part of it, you know? "

ITA with this. He was such an ASS for throwing that back in Dean's face. I have totally thought Sam has acting like an ass this season. So I guess I want to say your right on that part. I just don't want Dean to give up on Sam at this point especially considering Sam is just out of his mind now.


ITA also with your analysis on why Dean is smart. This is very true. He is a hands on guy.

I think the whole Heaven vs Hell thing is VERY interesting this season. I think Kripke's main point about it is that you really DON'T know who is on the good side. I think that the point is that there are people on both sides of the coin that can be shady and not really playing the good role. This really makes the show this season fascinating.

I liked Zechariah in the first episode he appeared, but after this last clip I'm like, "Ewwww, asshole." If I were Dean I would tell him to kiss my ass. LOL

Poor Castiel. I really love him. I hope he snaps out of his dog like obedience and becomes more independent again. LOL

Personally, I want Dean to take a break from Sam and then have SAM try to make amends. To me, that would be perfect. I do agree though that Dean needs to first make sure Sam is saved - if Dean won't do it, who will? Bobby? For all of the man's harsh words, he sure hasn't been taking any action.

I think Castiel WAS one of the good guys, but that the Heavenly Host has been corrupted. I don't think Ruby is good, I'm certain she's got her own agenda and is manipulating Sam into damning himself. But yeah, I think it is very interesting that the angels aren't automatically trustworthy and even the demons have their own internal politics. There's a lot of grey involved and very little black and white.

Honestly, I hated Zachariah then as well. XD The whole thing where he belittled Dean's experience in Hell and told him off for "whining" about it when, again, Dean has spoken of it twice for all of five minutes each time? Urgh. Then to pretend that Dean's life pre-Hell was nothing but fast cars and faster women? Yeah, let's just ignore the estranged father, dead mother, possibly going to go evil brother, the scars, that he can't ever go out as "Dean Winchester" because he's considered a mass murderer (and a dead one at that), the deaths of friends, the inability to ever settle down and so on never happened. It's nothing but cars, sex, and pie, boy howdy!

(Sorry, I REALLY don't like Zachariah!)

I hope Castiel makes a stand sooner rather than later, but I get the impression that the dickish angels have the power in Heaven right now. Any move on his part that's not pre-approved by them will result in another immediate smackdown unless he went renegade, and it doesn't quite look like he's ready do to so yet. :(

"onestly, I hated Zachariah then as well. XD The whole thing where he belittled Dean's experience in Hell and told him off for "whining" about it"

Ah ha! I have read this argument and I had an answer that a lot of people liked. Let me see what you think about it.

This is what I wrote for my episode review

"The speech to Dean was AWESOME. I loved him telling him despite his Daddy issues and him being in Hell that he is destined to do this and he will always pick it no matter what. I also loved that he told him to stop being so sad and mopey and start trying to fight. Some people might see that as being assholish to Dean. That he can't experience his feelings. But honestly I don't think that's what it is. I mean sure part of it is, because they don't have much time and they need Dean to get his act together. But honesty Dean's personality was bred into him and whether it's right or wrong (Hey, personally even though John's intentions were what he thought were right, and I know he truly loved his boys, I thought he was a lousy father) this is truly Dean's personality. He needs someone to be straightforward and not coddle him. So I did not have a problem with him basically saying "get over it." Besides I Think Zechariah had a genuine affection for Dean. At least that's how I personally felt. So I don't think this was said with malicious intent I can't squeee enough about Zechariah!"


My squee has gone down now. LOL But I still stick with what I said at the time for what I knew then. ;-)

I do agree that Dean snaps to faster with an order rather than with kindness, but that doesn't excuse the method chosen by Zachariah (or Bobby). It's not so much that I care that someone is telling Dean to get his act together, it's again how it's being done.

Zachariah pitched everything in terms of rewards for the hunting lifestyle, ignoring all of the (myriad) problems that come included and by doing so, it came across that Zach was duping Dean - and Dean was stupid enough to allow it. Bobby's words would have made perfect sense if the person in question were giving up at the first sign of trouble and had never sacrificed anything for his family, but Dean has Over and over and over again and this giving up is after a year of this sort of stuff from Sam.

By all means, have someone give Dean a firm talking to. All I ask is that it be done with respect to Dean's character: his intelligence and his experiences and his desperate love for his family.

Oh yeah, I absolutely agree that Dean needs to have that smackdown. I love Dean and hate him being called a whiny brat after everything he's sacrificed for his family, but Bobby was right that this is not the time to be abandoning Sam. Sam is messed up and taking away his one real source of support will only make it worse. Dean has given a lot more for his family than he should have, but this isn't the time to throw up his hands and declare he's done, or he really could lose Sam for good and that would destroy him.

I agree with you. Like Zachariah's speech to Dean at the end of 4x17, it's time for some tough love. I get that Dean's hurt and angry and wants to give up, but it's hard for me to believe that he actually wouldn't go after Sam and try to save him. Dean is the one that's always held his family together and preached (since S1) that family is everything and you stick together. And Bobby, well....he's just awesome. He's not one to sugar-coat anything, especially when it comes to his "boys". His sudden mood swing was shocking, but I think that's what Dean needs to get his head out of his "woe-is-me" state and go after his brother like he's supposed to!

I totally love Dean and I understand his pain, but Bobby's actions and words here are meant to wake Dean up, not accept his defeatist attitude. And one way to get Dean into action is to make him angry, hence the "your dad was a coward" line. Go Bobby, go! \0/

I agree with you, poor Bobby doesn't realise how truly messed up Dean is and he believes being firm will get him back on track. John was always very tough on Dean and Dean himself always abhorred sentimental chick flick moments, so he genuinely believes it's the best strategy. Besides, hearing "he's not my brother, if he ever was" has got to sound truly idiotic coming from Dean, he sold his soul for Sam, of course he'll love him no matter what. So I think it's just a bad moment for it, just like Dean's "monster" to Sam. Normaly saying that after a fight between brothers who love each other so much would indeed be just whining, it's just that this time it really is one too many for poor Dean. What I mean is, I just can't badmouth Bobby. He always speaks apparently very harshly to the boys, but they always feel the love behind, and that love is still there. He's a better father to Dean than John ever was. But if he tried to confort Dean at this moment, Dean would have just folded on the floor sobbing - with good justification, no doubt - and it's really not the time for that.

And did you see the Space promo? It shows Castiel returning to Dean's side!
Now I can wait the finale without choking with worry.